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Jeanette Arakawa - Part 1 of 2

Date: July 22, 2022
Interviewer: Ellina Yin, Yvonne Kwan, Vickie Taketa
Interviewee: Jeanette Arakawa (1932 - 2023)

Jeanette Arakawa was born in San Francisco, California to Japanese immigrants. Between 1942 and 1945, during World War II, she was part of a diaspora that took her to Stockton, California, Rohwer, Arkansas, and Denver, Colorado. She returned to San Francisco in 1946. She is also the author of a fictional autobiography, The Little Exile, which recounts her young life as a subject of American concentration camps. Over the years, Jeanette's devotion to educational issues are exemplified by her role as a founding member of Asian Americans for Community Involvement (AACI) and her advocacy in helping change the CA Education Code to ensure that the content in public school textbooks are evaluated to consider representations of race and gender.

Transcript of Jeanette Arakawa

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Timeframe 0:00 >> 3:52

Jeanette Shizuko Arakawa.

(Interviewer) Can you tell us your father's name and place of birth?

Kengo Omi, Hiroshima, Japan.

(Interviewer) When did he arrive in the US?

In 1917.

(Interviewer) And his occupation?

At the time that he arrived from Japan, he was just somebody who was looking for work. He worked on the railroad, as well as canneries in Alaska.

(Interviewer) Your mother's maiden name?

Nishimoto.

(Interviewer) Her first name?

Katsuye.

(Interviewer) Her birthplace?

Osaka, Japan.

(Interviewer) When did she arrive in the US?

About the same year that my father, in 1917, although they had no knowledge of the other one or the other's presence.

(Interviewer) Where did she arrive?

She arrived at Angel Island.

(Interviewer) Then what city did she live in?

Stockton, California.

(Interviewer) Can you tell us the names of your siblings and birth order?

Okay. I have one sibling and his name is George Omi and he's the oldest and only sibling I have. I was born in San Francisco. According to my book, I was a premature birth, and I was born on a Murphy bed in quarters in the back of my father's dry-cleaning shop.

(Interviewer) And the year?

1932

(Interviewer) What city?

San Francisco. This was in the Polk district in San Francisco, which at the time was populated with families who had immigrated to the US, so my friends were mostly European American families from Italy and countries surrounding Italy. There was never a consideration that we were not Americans. We all felt like we were in the same category, families whose parents had come to the US for a better life.

Systems & Power Timeframe 3:52 >> 16:46

(Interviewer) What was the name of your grammar school?

Spring Valley. By the time I was in middle school, I was in camp. But the year before Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, my parents moved their dry-cleaning shop and our consequently our residence also, to the Sunset district in San Francisco. I don't know whether you're familiar with the Sunset district now, but at the time that we moved there, we were the only non-Asian family.

(Interviewer) Non-white?

Non-white and non-Asian. It was a subject of derision from the students or the friends that we had made in this new district, the Sunset.

(Interviewer) What year was that when you moved to the sunset?

1940

(Interviewer) Is this when you first experienced some discrimination?

Yes. This is where... When we first moved to the Sunset district, my parents felt like, I guess they had experienced discrimination as a dry-cleaning shop owner. Something that I'd not thought of was happening, but they felt that it was unsafe for me to be walking from our dry-cleaning shop to Lawton School, which was about two or three blocks from the cleaners. So she insisted that my brother always accompany me and, at that point, I saw no reason for me to be accompanied by my brother. So one day I left school by myself without the benefit of my brother's presence, and as I was walking up the hill from Lawton towards my home, I heard some chanting. It was something about monkeys and she's not a... I said, "I'm not a monkey. I know what monkeys look like, and I'm not a monkey." Then another child said, "She's not a monkey, she's a Jap, and I know that she is because my dad told me." And I just, I kept walking and I said, "I'm not a monkey and I'm not a Jap. I'm an American." And they said, "Well, what do you mean you're American?" And I said, "A-M-E-R-I-C-A-N. American." Then the group started talking to me, asking me to spell different words, and finally, they tired of that and I was able to walk home.

(Interviewer) So this was before the attack on Pearl Harbor?

The year before. It was 1940 that we moved from the Polk district to the Sunset.

(Interviewer) So do you remember the moment you learned about the attack on Pearl Harbor?

Yes.

(Interviewer) And your parents' reaction?

As I mentioned, we lived in quarters built in the back of the dry cleaning shop. One Sunday morning, the phone rang, and my father answered it and was my uncle saying that Pearl Harbor had been attacked. Then there was a lot of discussion about what that meant, what Pearl Harbor was. There was a lot of discussion between my father and my uncles and one of them said, "I think we're in trouble." Then my brother said, "What do you mean?" And my father was quiet. Then what happened when I returned to school, there was some discussion, the teacher tried to hold some discussion. There was one child who raised his hand wildly to be called on and then he said, "My dad and I went to Jap Town and people were throwing eggs and tomatoes at..." He says, "It was so much fun." And I made it a point not to sit next to that... or pretty much avoid him.

On a particular day in February, I was called out of class and told to go home and the reason is because there were two FBI men who had come to... Actually, I don't know what their motive was, but they put us in house arrest, which meant that we were not able to leave for any reason, unless accompanied by an FBI agent. Then we were told that the area that we lived in in San Francisco was a military zone and people of Japanese ancestry were not permitted to live in that area, which meant that we had to leave our home. And we went to Stockton because this is where my grandparents were. From my grandparents' Stockton home, we were then moved to what was called an assembly center, which was the San Joaquin County Fairgrounds converted into a camp for us. I've written a book called The Little Exile, and I've described most of my experience there. One of the episodes, which I felt was significant, was shortly after we had arrived at Stockton assembly center, my brother George and I were exploring the camp. We were curious because the camp was in the middle of town and there was car traffic just on the other side of the fence. I remember asking him, "What do you think those people think that we're doing in here?" Just then a voice coming from above shouted, "What are your kids doing there?" It turned out that we were standing right next to a watch tower, a guard tower, with a soldier up in it and a soldier standing guard. So my brother grabbed my hand and said, "Let's get out of here." Then at a point where we were stopping to catch our breath, my brother said, "I don't know what the people out there think we're doing, but we may not be in black and white stripes, but we are in prison." We were in that camp for a couple of months before we were shipped to Rohwer, Arkansas, which was in the delta region of the Mississippi River.

(Interviewer) Could you talk about how your parents reacted to the evacuation and how they conveyed it to you, what was happening?

I don't think they had to convey anything to me. We were participants and we were there. So there was nothing to explain, is that it was mysterious and it left me feeling like I had some connection with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, but they never... Well, my parents apparently were not able to pick that up from my brother or me, it never occurred to them that we might be thinking that way, because it was never discussed.

Systems & Power Timeframe 16:46 >> 18:45

(Interviewer) So the character, little Marie in Little Exile is-

Me.

(Interviewer) … is you! So all the experiences and all the sequences of events are autobiographical.

Correct.

(Interviewer) Can you tell us how you got the name Marie?

My father was a movie buff. He loves the movies. He did some acting himself, so I guess that must be why he was so attached to movies and movie characters. When he took me to Spring Valley School, as a kindergartner, and when he registered me, the teacher asked what my name was and he said, "Janet." And she thought he said, "Jeanette." So she said something like, "Jeanette McDonald." And he said he went, "Janet Gaynor," but she never caught that. Instead, in reality, I should be called Janet, rather than Jeanette. When I was writing the story, I was going to use Mary and I thought, "I'll have the teacher become [inaudible 00:20:22]."

Systems & Power Timeframe 18:45 >> 28:05

(Interviewer) So Jeanette, I remember when we were working on the textbook committee together and talking about other things, you also expressed that you wanted to write something. You had a story you wanted to write because of an incident that happened to you. You were driving.

I did write it, and I submitted it to the Hokubei Mainichi. They used to have a writing contest and I won second place for this. It was about a trip that my husband and... Actually, when my older son was going to Santa Barbara, we were driving him down to Santa Barbara, and there's a car next to me on 101. The license plate holder said Pearl Harbor Survivor, and I somehow associated Pearl Harbor Survivor to my... I always thought it described my situation and I feared that the driver would associate me in a different way. I was a Pearl Harbor survivor in my mind, in terms of feeling guilt about it and I feared that he would think of me as someone responsible for Pearl Harbor. For many years, I stayed out of public places on December 7th. (long pause as Jeanette wells up) (voice cracking) Because of that feeling that people would associate me with Pearl Harbor and blame me. It's a feeling of guilt that I held for a long time.

(Interviewer) So this began your need to tell your story.

I guess so. You might say so.

(Interviewer) Because you submitted-

Oh, and I won second place with that story. What's interesting is, there was a woman who said she had a daughter and she said, "She doesn't know what I'm complaining about, but her daughter is just fine." Which showed me that there's another point of view. I wrote the whole story for the Hokubei Mainichi, and this classmate of mine's mother wrote and said that her daughter was fine and I don't know what anybody is complaining about.

Okay. I always enjoyed writing, not well and not necessarily fiction, but I used to write stories about any trips that I've taken and people seemed to enjoy it. So Stanford began to offer adult education writing classes, and I decided to enroll and the school was staffed with Wallace Stegner scholars. I don't know if you know Wallace Stegner. The first class that I attended, the teacher said that what he would like to do is give two assignments. One was, he says, "I'm going to tell a story, and I want you to write your version of it." The first story was an incident that happened to him in a bank, and he said, "That's one story. And the second story is something that's happened in your life that you think might be of interest to your classmates." Okay. So I decided to write a story about... my mother at the time, one of the least favorite excursions or things that she liked to do is go to the bank. So I thought I'd write a story about taking my mother to the bank. The other was about camp. I wrote the stories and turned them in, and the next class, the teacher called me to the desk and said, "I want to talk to you after class." So when I went to his desk, he had my two essays on the table. Then he said, "Is this true?"

The first essay or story was about by going into the bank and being shot by a robber and having a near death experience and the other story of the evacuation and the relocation. Then he said, "Is this true? This really happened?" And I said, "Are you asking about the bank robbery?" And he says, "No, the other story." So he had heard about the evacuation for the first time in his life, although he went to the University of Arkansas and in Arkansas, there are two relocation centers and his mother and father were educators in Pennsylvania. But that information had not gotten to him. He said, "You've got to write a story, write a book." He said, "I'll help you." And what he told me is, "Write from the heart," which was very good advice.

Narrative & Identity Timeframe 28:05 >> 34:08

(Interviewer) So what year was this? When did this happen with your writing class?

When I was about 80.

(Interviewer) Okay. And the article for the Hokubei Mainichi?

No, these were just class assignments. So they didn't go anywhere except into my book.

(Interviewer) But that first article, the Pearl Harbor survivor was much earlier, wasn't it?

Well, the one about the-- The Hokubei, it had to be because Doug was on his way to Santa Barbara. He's 60 now. So you do the arithmetic, you figure out.

(Interviewer) What did you major in in college?

Public health. English was not my favorite subject. Actually at Cal, you have to take an English. They've got the Subject A, the first requirement is you have to pass the Subject A and then having done that, you had to take either Speech or English to satisfy their English requirement. As it turned out, because English is not my favorite subject, I thought Speech would be a good one to take. It would be easy, Speech. And couple of days after I'd been in the class, the teacher called me to the desk. There's something about me that attracted the teachers. He said, "Miss Omi, were you in camp during World War Two?" This was the first time that anyone outside of the Japanese community had ever brought up the subject. Among ourselves, we talk about our camp experiences, but not the whys or the wherefores. But here was somebody totally outside of the community, a teacher, and said, "Jeanette, you must..." He said, "I've been following this over the years." So he had been following internment, the relocation and internment. He'd actually been part of the history, which he had been writing. And he's the co-author of the book called.

(Interviewer) American Concentration Camps?

Pride, Prejudice, and the Constitution. And he said- And he said, "You, Jeanette have to tell this story. In a situation like that, there's the spoilers and the spoilees." He pointed to himself with, "We are the spoilers. You are the spoilees. And you must tell the spoilee story. I'll take care of the spoilers."

(Interviewer) What was the name of this professor?

Edward Barnhart.

(Interviewer) How did you react when he said that?

I was stunned because no one outside of the community had ever talked about it and I had lived with the thought that no one really cared.

(Interviewer) But you didn't start writing about it until much later. Is that right? Or did you take his advice and start writing something? That was in college, wasn't it?

That was my freshman year in college in 1954 or five or something like that.

(Interviewer) Very early. Less than 10 years after camp.

But I think it had planted a seed. I really can't tell you about any activities I were involved in, related to promoting or to exploring or related to camp or prejudice. So I think the seed was planted by... It was always something that was in the back of my mind.

Systems & Power Timeframe 34:08 >> 44:48

(Interviewer) So what city did your family return to after being released from camp [when you left when you left Rohwer and your trip back to San Francisco]?

Oh, Denver, Colorado. And basically, the way the system was arranged was, uh, the administration began to post occupations, work that was available because people were not released from camp unless they had a, uh, a job employment. And with my parents, although they had a marketable skill, which is the dry-cleaning industry, uh, my father was sort of adventurous, and he was thinking about, uh, mining mushrooms. Yeah, we lived in an area that's not too far from mushroom growing. Uh, the swamps of the Mississippi River.

But eventually, there were job offers in Denver that appealed to my parents. And there's this one where we decided to go, and we were about the same time. Uh, California was beginning to relax the regulations about Japanese Americans returning to California. But most of the people decided they did not want to return to California, even if it were available to them because of the… uh, negative experience they left with few. So we moved to camp and we moved to Denver. And shortly after we arrived in Denver, the atomic bomb had been released on Japan, and the war was over. And then, uh, everybody had, even those who said they didn't want to return to California, were returning to California. So, you know, my parents felt and so our relatives and you should go.

And uh, the most interesting part of our, uh, experience with, with, uh, Denver was the trip, trip back. We, uh, and I document in “the exile” [Jeanette’s book] and is my father had bought a 1934 Oldsmobile which had a cracked block and uh, uh, tires were no longer made of tires of a certain dimension. And, you know, I think back, and I had a very interesting experience with cars and tires that I never would have had we not decided to drive from Denver to San Francisco. But it was a constant process looking for a water for our cracked block for the motor has a as is is surrounded by water which is held together in the block. So you get a lesson in auto mechanics. And so we're all we're always looking for horse troughs or any, any place where any source of water that we could muster for cracked block.

(Interviewer) How old were you then? And how old was your brother?

  1. I was 13 and my brother was 15. And the the tires had to be retread tires. And we finally reached the point where we could not get any water, and we were out of tires and my father and my mother were standing out in the road trying to thumb [hitch] a ride. And then a person driving a pickup truck stop and, uh, offered to take one of us into town to come back with somebody with tires and, and water and my father decided my mother should be the one. And so my mother rode with this stranger into town and returned with in a decent amount of time. And, uh, all was good, but the one of the things that we were on a highway and not a few miles within view was a railroad track. And my father, he's very creative and imaginative. He says he he suggested my mother go to the railroad track and try to stop the train so that she could get on. But, uh, anyway, she did not do it. And the truck driver stopped and said and, and my father tried to…when the truck driver came back with my mother, he tried to pay him and, and the man's said, “You've been through enough. Please, you know, I, I can't accept any money.” And the kindness of the of this man was overwhelming.

When we when we arrived in San Francisco, we had we we didn't really have a place to stay. And it was torture here. It was the end of the war. And so housing which the housing shortage not only from people like us, but the military people were being released from the army and families were looking for housing as well. And we, uh, we finally found a house that at one time must have been a grand house with a dining room and, and, uh, and an ample sized kitchen and everything. But it was occupied by a, uh, the landlords were a Black couple with uh two teenagers, and we had to share a kitchen and the bathroom and eventually and, uh, bachelor man and, uh, eventually the man moved out so we had a little bit more space.

Timeframe 44:48 >> 48:30

(Interviewer) And the name of the high school that you attended? What were your favorite activities and courses?

Lowell High School. Well, you know, I I mentioned that when we when I went to Cal the first time, I spoke with somebody about that. Well, a a Lowell had Forensic Society is a speech…And there was a teacher who was who, uh, organized speech contests and I, I was in his class and, you know, over the years I always thought, why, why did he never ask me about camp? But, uh, he said this. When the war started, his forensics society was decimated because all his students were were taken in the camp, and so he assumed that because I was Japanese American, that I, too, must have a gift of, uh, I too must be a good candidate for the forensic society. But he was very, he was also a social studies teacher, but he was very kind. And but over the years, I've always said, uh, wondered why he was directly affected his forensic the club had been diminished by the war, by the government's illegal acts. Why he never took advantage of that. And it's too late to ask, you know.

I lived in San Francisco, and I went to school in Berkeley. We spent a daily commute across the Bay Bridge. And so, uh, and, and I helped my parents dry-cleaning shop when I was not in class, and I was active in this East Asian Student Club, which was a social club and uh, I didn't have any because my time was limited. I didn't any other activities that I because of the community.

(Interviewer) Did you participate in any organizations in your neighborhood in in the Japanese American community?

Oh. I was a member of the Junior YBA [Junior Young Buddhist Association].

Timeframe 48:30 >> 52:25

(Interviewer) Is this where you met your husband?

No, I met him in Berkeley. He was in Fresno. And, you know, had he gone to Fresno State, I would have never.

(Interviewer) So in what year did you marry?

(Interviewer) What's his name?

Kiyoto Arakawa

(Interviewer) And what camp did his he and his family go to.

And Kiyo was, uh, went to Jerome, Arkansas. And then from Jerome, they went to Tule Lake because the, the, uh, loyalty question.

(Interviewer) And so did you get married right after college?

Yes.

(Interviewer) And how many children do you have.

Two.

(Interviewer) And their names?

Douglas and Aaron.

(Interviewer) First of all, what profession was your husband?

Dentist

(Interviewer) Was he older than you?

Yes. Yes.

(Interviewer) Was he already in dental school when you married or was he a dentist?

You know, the age question. He was born in December, and I was born in October of the same year.

(Interviewer) Was not much older him. And what was your first home as a married couple?

Uh, Riverside, California. Well, my husband was in the Air Force. He was stationed at Marshall Air Force Base. And those jets flying overhead remind me of March. And those jets and march were the strategic air cover and look out for, uh, Russia and. And Korea.

(Interviewer) Was he active?

He was a dentist.

(Interviewer) There was your son. Your firstborn, born on the Air Force Base. [Yeah] And when did you move to Palo Alto or this area?

When his commitment was over, we decided that we would just…my husband was from Fresno, and I was from San Francisco, and we decided on someplace that was in between in Palo Alto. It's halfway in between Fresno and Palo Alto—if anyone is interested.

Timeframe 52:25 >> 58:15

(Interviewer) So your son was an only child for a long time, right?

18 years

(Interviewer) So you've had your second when you're about 40?

Yes. At the time that we moved to Palo Alto, and my son started school, uh, know there was a, a movement, uh, an educational philosophy which called for open class. They called an open classroom, this classroom without a wall. And UCLA was, uh, it was a, it was a project at UCLA. And the parents, I don't know whether the parents were attracted to, although any school at that time because of, because of its philosophy and its possible following of UCLA's blueprint for schools.

(Interviewer) Is this where your activism began?

Yes. Because, uh oh. The parents of the school were very vocal and, uh, for some reason they took me on. As for their… someone they uh persuaded to support their point of view and went to board meetings as well as PTA meetings, and one of the PTA members who were not from a Ohlone School was uh, Becky Morgan was active in PTA for a different school, but she and other people…

(Interviewer) Were you the only Asian in that PTA group?

I think I was.

(Interviewer) And what was it about this group, Jeanette, that you felt that you could do some good with this group? What was it about this group?

I don't think is what I felt about myself, but what were others that for some reason I must have been an interesting, uh, subject to try to mold into what so and to kind of, to follow and to this somehow, they, they saw, uh, potential.

(Interviewer) And because of that, your response was to the school?

I, I, they, made me feel at ease. I feel so empowered from. There was a time when I was very intimidated by people in power and, uh, PTA people that I met helped me get over this, uh, intimidation and, uh, they involved the, and whatever concerns they had at a district level…the local level.

(Interviewer) What year was this when you, when you first started getting involved with the Palo Alto PTA and taking a role? What year?

Oh, I would add five years to those or subtract the and I was this time I was let's see he was born in 56 and he started school and so this is in the sixties.

Transformation & Change Timeframe 58:15 >> 1:07:54

(Interviewer) So when did you begin to work on the evaluation of instructional material? When did you begin to take an active role in this?

It’s it was like it was a grassroots activity or there were a group of us who who saw that the there was a, uh, to do with, uh, Japanese American, which was not very complimentary to particularly various groups, uh, and oh, this book was a supplementary book and it was offered to, oh, adoption. And we investigated and discovered that there was a mechanism in place for adopting textbooks and in various grades and uh, a group of us assembled and approached the basically the, the way that books are adopted is, is a suggestion was made at the local level and this was taken to the, uh, to the state level, at the state level, uh.

(Interviewer) So just one thing, you met with Leo Ryan?

The assemblyman…oh, that's skipping ahead. It goes from, from the curriculum commission to the State Board of Education and the State Board of Education is under the egis of the state legislature and, uh, what we discovered at some point is this was after we had defeated the adoption of this book that did not reflect well on Buddhists and uh, a number of groups participated. I think you have a list of, of the various groups and the ultimately it was decided that we would have, uh, uh, uh, organization and volunteers who would evaluate textbooks for diversity.

We, uh, we pursued, uh, we pursued, uh, uh, legal means when we discovered at some point further on down the line that we were, were evaluating books against a standard which had not been established. And so the, it was at that point that we, we were first on in terms of who's in charge here. And, and it it became apparent that the the state legislature was in charge of what this and the state legislature is divided into two halves and the Assembly and the Senate. And so we went first to the the chairman of the of the Assembly who at that time, Leo Ryan. And we went to him with uh, uh, an education code that already existed. And at the time it was the only one that spoke to, uh, any kind of standard in terms of what was included in history and the only code we came across was one that was entitled Alcohol and Firearms. Firearms and Tobacco. And so it would be simple for for Leo Ryan to simply add, uh diversity language.

(Interviewer) And so when did you do this? Immediately?

During discussion and oh, Leo Ryan, uh, his administrative assistant, Randy Young, was busy with, with his pencil and paper, I think it was before computers. No, but, uh, so he, he formulate, he adapted, he altered or he amended the code to include, uh, a diversity, cultural diversity in and its standards in terms of what would be, uh, legal. And it was called the legal and factual analysis committee ultimately that's what and to be so the mandate to to the State Board of Education was to have a committee that would see that, that, uh, the standard of State Board of Education.

(Interviewer) What was the next step after Leo Ryan to get this piece of legislation passed?

The next step was to take it to George Mosconi, who was chair of the Education Committee of the State Senate in between the two. And then there was the governor involved. But I don't know who the governor was.

(Interviewer) Was it Pat Brown?

Oh [inaudible]. although I remember wandering the halls of the legislature and running across Ronald Reagan.

(Interviewer) Oh, Ronald Reagan, right. Of course. Yes. Because he was there. You know, there was Ronald Reagan during that period.

So there should be an education code that reflects alcohol, tobacco, firearms and and cultural diversity.

Systems & Power Timeframe 1:07:54 >> 1:13:11

(Interviewer) So so Jeanette, just to close this area off, how many reports and manuals did your committee produce at the end of this? How were they used and where are they housed today?

I don't know. The, uh, we had a formidable group of people who were involved in the process. I don't think we documented who exactly do this.

(Interviewer) One of your manuals for textbook evaluation was distributed to evaluators and you made a note in one of your one of your written responses that the first iteration, your committee was given credit for passing this legislation as well. You gave appreciation to Assemblyman Leo Ryan and Randy Young for being a part of making this possible. But when the second iteration of the manual was produced for a larger group of evaluators, the credit that was given to your group for having done the work to get the legislation passed was removed, as was the credit given to Leo Ryan and his staff Randy Young. So do you know who who has been given credit for this work?

This is the first I've heard.

(Interviewer) So how do you feel about your group having their name removed from this document? And and assemblymen Leo Ryan and Randy Young, because your group had given a great appreciation for their assistance in passing this legislation.

That made a difference?

(Interviewer) Yes, it took a tremendous amount of effort on behalf of your group and your tenacity to to find this piece of education code that that you could amend for to make it. I think you said in order for this to have any meaning, this change in legislation, it had to reference the legality. And you were able to find that document and makes a difference because of the example, those of you struggling and fighting and advocating and all this grassroots effort exactly that began with this PTA group. How do you suggest going about doing that?

(Interviewer) It was, it was mentioned in the first iteration of the manual. Yes so there's a need to find the second.

The last one is resting and that's in Stanford's library and the Monterey, California State in Monterey.

(Interviewer) Okay. So there's another copy at Cal State University, Monterey Bay. Right.

And the Library of Congress.

(Interviewer) So I think there's researchers that is that can help us find that locate the documents and kind of see if we can get really a match between the first copy and then the second edition. Probably, you know, the the Library of Congress number is in that document. I was amaze at the gall of us approaching someone like Leo Ryan, knocking on his door and having him agree to it.